With knots or no knots that's a question
- Published on Thursday, 21 May 2009 07:56
- Written by Zamil
It all started with my post on ARA: I would call "Kinbaku does not use any knots" an urban myth.
The answer I got from Tatu, list owner of ARA and owner of ds-arts.com reads the following:
Zamil,
No not an urban myth at all my friend, unless you consider Nawa Yumio's work urban myth. The erotic use of rope (Kinbaku) is what followed the martial use of rope during the Edo Period (1600-1688) in Japan (Hojojutsu) was built upon a number of historic Hojojutsu principles, and one of those had to do with the use of knots.
To be in bondage would have been considered extremely shameful for a captured prisoner, and would probably have led to seppuku (ritual suicide). Therefore among those 150 or so schools of hojojutsu, methods of retraining without knots was developed, because if there is no knot, one was technically is not in bondage and so a system of "wrappings" was used.
Shame historically has been a huge emotional matter to the Japanese.
They wanted their prisoners alive so they could be interrogated.
My sources for this is Master Nawa Yumio books (translations by Dr Richard Cleaver). Who is Nawa Yumio?
**10th Successor, last grandmaster of Masaki Ryu, a school teaching the manriki-gusari (double weighted chain), Edo Machikata, Jutte-jutsu
**5th Successor, Shigemura School Truncheon and Rope Tying Kyoho period (1716-1723)
***Martial arts researcher
**Author of about 50 books
Here are his earliest works that tell us much of what we know about the subject:
*Gomon keibatsu-shi (History of Torture and Punishment), 9/20/1963. His first book.
*Gomon keibatsu-shi (History of Torture and Punishment), 8/25/1966. A 2nd printing expanded version of the 1963 1st edition.
*Jutte Hojo-no Kenkyu (The Arresting Rope Study),6/27/1964.His second book.
I was fortunate enough to go to Meji University last Spring, and to view his exhibit which was referred to as the "Criminal Museum", where much was viewed about various techniques used in Hojojutsu and in Torture.
Following the Edo Period, as this new use for rope for erotic purposes evolved (Kinbaku), those same Hojo principles were used, including not using knots.
It has only been in recent history that some in Japan and now in the west use knots while doing a newer style of Japanese rope, I do.... but sometimes I don't. When I observed Arisue Go in classes, who is famous for his trueness to the historic kinbaku forms, I never saw him use a knot, except an overhand knot at the end of his ropes; but never a knot as it was applied to the bondage itself.
Another interesting aspect if you go back to the 40's - 60's ... you won't find very much along the line of suspensions and kinbaku. That is another recent development among those doing Japanese Ropes. Due to the club performers and porn industry today, suspension has become central to Japanese Rope, but historically besides being the 4th and most excruciating torture technique, has nothing to do with historic kinbaku. Kinbaku is not porn, it is about the beauty of rope and skin. Kinbaku with suspension would be the urban myth if there is one.
I have taught all of this in my powerpoint presentation "Torture to Erotic Surrender" at Shibaricon and other conventions. Probably will do it again at Shibaricon 2008. Much of this will be in my book too, whenever I get that finished... ;)
Regards, Tatu
Well, a lot of nicely worded arguments... but to my mind without any support by contemporary sources and full of methodological errors.
Thing is, most people believe on what others say and are not willing or don't have the possibility to question what was said to seperade wishfull thinking and mythology from facts. This is why I allways enter into discussions like that, especialy with people which are "famous" for spreading their knowledge as hard facts without stating that what they say is a hypothesis.
My answer:
Tatu,
it feels good to be in a discussion we have had a lot of times. ;-) At least, this time we got some sources we can discuss and lift the argument to the next stage.
But before we can enter into it, a critic of methodology needs to be applied. The method of inductive logic used in this post below is questionable in general and especially in this context. In historic science it is actually strictly "forbidden" to use it without proclaiming whatever the conclusion may be, that the conclusion is a hypothesis and never a logically developed fact. In comparison, the conclusions made below would have been completely different if deductive logic would have been applied.
Usually an in depth discussion of the given post would not be entered into exactly for that reason but we're not in a science group but in ARA ;-)
That said we can continue.
"No not an urban myth at all my friend, unless you consider Nawa Yumio's work urban myth."
I personally consider nobodys rope work an urban myth, may it be Chinese style or Balkan rope or Shibari, Kinbaku or any self developed skill. Rope skills are for fun and never a rumor, that's just not possible.
"The erotic use of rope (Kinbaku) is what followed the martial use of rope during the Edo Period (1600-1688) "
The Edo Period lasted - depending on the sources one references - at least till 1868. If one puts the start of that period to 1615 or 1603 is again depending on the historic event where one sees it start.
If or if not rope was used in an erotic context during the Edo period still remains a hypothesis to me. As of now, no contemporary sources are available to me to proof that to be correct. If you do have any, please name them.
"To be in bondage would have been considered extremely shameful for a captured prisoner, and would probably have led to seppuku (ritual suicide). "
To my mind, this might be true for certain classes of Edo Japan, e.g Samurai and above, but certainly not for all. "Marching trough the streets bound" was applied to all classes as one type of punishment. As far as I know, a peasant or merchant would not even come close to a weapon to kill himself. See Daniel V. Botsman on punishment in Japan.
If or if not knots have been considered shameful is again something I've found no trustworthy sources for. Where have you gained this knowledge from that supports this hypothesis?
"Therefore among those 150 or so schools of hojojutsu, methods of retraining without knots was developed, because if there is no knot, one was technically is not in bondage and so a system of "wrappings" was used. "
It may be that there are schools of Hojojutsu which have used no knots at all (please name them). But this does not apply to all of them and not to all techniques. Take a look at å√¢‚Ǩ¬†√¢‚Äû¬¢ç√Ö‚Äú√Ö¬∏ã√Ǭŧè¦√Ö¬°ã√ǬÅ√ã‚Ćã√¢‚Ǩ≈°√¢‚Ǩ¬πæ√Ǭç√¢‚Ǩ¬¢ç¸√¢‚Ǩ≈æè¡√¢‚Ǩ≈ì æ√¢‚Ǩ¬∞√¢‚Ǩ¬πã√Ǭūã√ǬŨã√¢‚Ǩ≈°√¢‚Ǩ¬πã√¢‚Ǩ≈°√ã‚Ćã√ǬÅ√¢‚Ǩ¬†ã√Ǭūã√¢‚Ǩ≈°√Ǭèã√ǬÅ√¢‚Ǩ¬πã√¢‚Ǩ≈°√¢‚Ǩ¬πå®√Ö‚Äôæ√ã‚Ć√Ǭêæ√¢‚Ǩ¬∞√¢‚Ǩ¬πé √¢‚Ǩ¬† for example, just to name one source in which knots are used.
"Shame historically has been a huge emotional matter to the Japanese. They wanted their prisoners alive so they could be interrogated."
It is very questionable in the historic context of Edo Japan that any black'n'white images may be correct. Take a look at merchants and peasants and you will find completely different viewpoints. Furthermore even Edo society is not static in its organization and not in its punishments. See again Daniel V. Botsman for details.
"It has only been in recent history that some in Japan and now in the west use knots while doing a newer style of Japanese rope, "
As said above, the hypothesis of "no knots in Hojo-Jutsu" is not correctly developed and is not supported by the majority of modern and contemporary sources.
"When I observed Arisue Go in classes, who is famous for his trueness to the historic kinbaku forms, I never saw him use a knot, except an overhand knot at the end of his ropes; but never a knot as it was applied to the bondage itself."
Which is an interesting point, because in his two books "æ√Ö‚Äú√¢‚Ǩ¬∞æ√Ö‚Äú«å√¢‚Ǩ¬∞√¢‚Ǩ¬∫ã√ǬŮç·√Ö¬†ç¸√¢‚Ǩ¬∫äº√¢‚Ǩ¬ù輪æ√¢‚Ǩ¬∫¸ 第壱巻" and "æ√Ö‚Äú√¢‚Ǩ¬∞æ√Ö‚Äú«å√¢‚Ǩ¬∞√¢‚Ǩ¬∫ã√ǬŮç·√Ö¬†ç¸√¢‚Ǩ¬∫äº√¢‚Ǩ¬ù輪æ√¢‚Ǩ¬∫¸ 第äº√Ö‚Äôå·»" he is not only describing certain knots but is using them as well. The question if or if not these two book are books on Kinbaku is answered by the title of the books. If or if not he has changed his style since he published the books in 2005 I don't know.
"It has only been in recent history that some in Japan and now in the west use knots while doing a newer style of Japanese rope,"
Considering Zukai no Hojojutsu by Fujita Seiko and å√¢‚Ǩ¬†√¢‚Äû¬¢ç√Ö‚Äú√Ö¬∏ã√Ǭŧè¦√Ö¬°ã√ǬÅ√ã‚Ćã√¢‚Ǩ≈°√¢‚Ǩ¬πæ√Ǭç√¢‚Ǩ¬¢ç¸√¢‚Ǩ≈æè¡√¢‚Ǩ≈ì æ√¢‚Ǩ¬∞√¢‚Ǩ¬πã√Ǭūã√ǬŨã√¢‚Ǩ≈°√¢‚Ǩ¬πã√¢‚Ǩ≈°√ã‚Ćã√ǬÅ√¢‚Ǩ¬†ã√Ǭūã√¢‚Ǩ≈°√Ǭèã√ǬÅ√¢‚Ǩ¬πã√¢‚Ǩ≈°√¢‚Ǩ¬πå®√Ö‚Äôæ√ã‚Ć√Ǭêæ√¢‚Ǩ¬∞√¢‚Ǩ¬πé √¢‚Ǩ¬† I doubt that.
"Another interesting aspect if you go back to the 40's - 60's ... you won't find very much along the line of suspensions and kinbaku. That is another recent development among those doing Japanese Ropes. "
If that is true, what do you make out of that fact that in "One hundred articles" of the mid 18th century (sometimes called the "Tokugawa punishment edicts") the use of zurizeme (hanging by rope) was one of four torture methods in Edo Japan and was applied according to coeval sources?
To me that is the foundation for the suspension techniques of Kinbaku today.
"but historically besides being the 4th and most excruciating torture technique, has nothing to do with historic kinbaku. "
It is certainly an interesting line you draw here. On the one side, your argumentation uses historic sources (hojojutsu) and techniques used within this system to support your hypothesis, on the other hand you say that historic facts (zurizeme) have nothing to do with Kinbaku and its developments. How come and based on what facts was this line drawn?
"The erotic use of rope (Kinbaku) is what followed the martial use of rope during the Edo Period"
Which would put the development of Kinbaku to 1868 the earliest. But as far as I know, no contemporary sources are available that actually support this argument. If you know any, please advise. At the moment, I would put the beginning of Kinbaku to the first publications of Kitan Club in the middle of the last century.
Where does this leave us?
The use of knots in Hojo-Jutsu as a whole is a given fact. If or if not some systems of Hojo-Jutsu do not use knots is possible, but still needs to be proven by contemporary sources.
That Hojo-Jutsu bequeathed certain aspects of it into Kinbaku is widely accepted. But if or if not one specialized Hojo-Jutsu system - one that did not use knots - is the only ancestor of Kinbaku is highly unlikely because it would rule out all other ancestors like ebizeme, zurizeme etc. But these two have had their share on the development of Kinbaku as well (See Master "K"'s book for details).
That there was something called "historic Kinbaku" remains to be proven. Kinbaku today is a broad collection of different rope styles following two major lines. If there is a Kinbaku system that doesn\'t use any knots, this system has a right on its own but is not to be considered to be "the one and only" Kinbaku system.
Tatu, I hope that your book will help to clarify some of the myths that have been developed around the historic context and development of Kinbaku. I whish you all the best for your project!
His answer to my last eMail (29.10.07):
"Zamil... Just a few comments, work has me very busy right now...
When I was referring to the Edo Period please understand: * That while I love research, I was just "generally speaking". Being a history major and having studied this extensively, I do know about the various dates, etc... however when I teach, I try to appeal to the average student and voicing precise dates is not a priority for me, as the average person in my class is typically there for rope and not a history lesson. History bores most people, so I look for ways to keep peoples attention.
So for example one way to make it interesting is when I mention the Edo Period, and the puzzled looks appear on the faces, I will say... the Edo Period began a few years after Richard Chamberlain arrived in the 1980's TV series, Shogun and ended about the time when Tom Cruise got there in "The Last Samurai"..... and everyone goes ohhhhhh!
Rope I'm sure was used in many forms as in attested by the pottery in the Jomon Period. I'm aware of the images at your site and the historic citing of the battle of Onin in 1467 (ref "Shibari" by Master K).
My point was simply to relate that it was during the Edo period, the use of rope was codified or formalized into a Edo Period martial art.
Which means what later became known as an Iemoto system developed which led to the various schools of Hojojutsu.
As for the avoidance of the use of knots for reasons of shame was a reference to translations of Nawa Yumio 1963/4, who is regarded as the foremost authority on on the various martial arts, crime and punishment in the Edo Period. I will ask my translator for more insight and will get back to you some time down the road.
Another interesting point about Hojojutsu is that I've heard that while hojojutsu developed as a martial skill among the Samurai class, it is my understanding that with the class system at the time, the actual restraining was beneath the actual respected Samurai and was left to others down the food chain so to speak.
I did state that "among" the various 150 schools methods of restraining without knots was developed. I did not say all, but it seems that style became primary at least, but I'm sure varied village to village.
Back to work.. will write more in a few days..
Regards,
Tatu"
I'm actually not quite sure what to make out of it. It seams that we have a complete different understanding about the seriousness of this topic, or am I misinterpretating something?
When I read the lines with "last samurai" and "shogun" I'm close to asking him if he don't want to rename Tokugawa-Shogunate into "Toranaga" just to make the point.
I think I should not.
Image for you!
